Marc (CRO) — 2026-05-05 18:18
Marathon meeting with Brendan Casey (decision maker on transaction agreement) and Paul Clark. Because Brendan was late... I ended up having an hour meeting with Paul followed by an hour meeting with Brendan. Treasure trove of learnigns for both GTM and product. For context... here was my pitch going into it:
Core pitch
You've built a strong spec-driven channel for projects that already exist, while we focus on the much larger set of buildings that aren't moving yet but could, by moving owners from "not now" to real $1–2M scoped projects that actually go out to bid
Example: Related → ~40 buildings analyzed → 6–7 new projects that did not exist before, now going to bid with scopes centered on your system, effectively expanding pipeline inside a customer you already prioritize
Competition + commoditization (referencing issues they have had with copycats)
Today is a claims-driven market, but by driving real projects and capturing actual install and performance data, we turn it into a performance market where differentiation is grounded in outcomes
As the market commoditizes and more "good enough" competitors enter, spec position matters less and track record matters more, and this approach builds that track record early and at scale
Economics
You already invest to win deals pricing flexibility, and this simply reallocates a portion of that spend upstream toward creating and advancing projects that wouldn't otherwise exist
We typically structure this in the high single digits, tied only to incremental projects we help originate and move forward, where the real question is not the fee but the cost of not having the project at all
Marc (CRO) — 2026-05-05 18:22
My notes....
Preferred Pricing
Owners who get "special pricing": Related, LeFrak, Van Barton (office to resi conversion). Maybe Equity Residential "should" as well since they "fly into NYC from Chicago to talk about projects in DC, Boston, NYC and Chicago)
Brendan's rational for special pricing…. These were the owners who wanted to do 500 unit projects when Epocha only had a 100 unit US install base…. So they took a risk.
Special pricing seems to be re-negotirated annually. Currently it is somewhere in neighborhood of "40-45%" or "~42.5%" off of single unit list price (regardless of volume ordered – but these guys are of course only really ordering larger volumes). Compare to standard volume only based pricing discount for "non special" customers which ranges from 30% (100 units) to 35% (2000+ units)... so the special customers are getting anywhere from ~7.5% - 12.5% better pricing than others
Existing channels
Primary: specifying engineers (e.g. Juan Carlos at Glickman) – from previous conversations, they have focused most on this one… and it is generating tons of deals for them.
Some leads from existing contractors (but those leads usually need a lot of Epcoha's time to develop)
Also have a door knocking crew and NTM Tal Eyal (fiormer President of FS Energy) stirring up individual buildings. My comment… "I get how Runwise can have door knockers to sell a 20k solution with a year ROI… but I am not sure how well that is going to work with
Some design builds (Eco Energy) who can help try to push through the complexity of selling to co-ops with multiple decision makers ,need for financing, etc.
And then those preferred owners for direct sales
Marc (CRO) — 2026-05-05 18:22
Contractors
Labor to install their units with the two holes in an existing PTAC or ac sleeve: 2 workers can do 4 units per day…. $1,800 per worker per day = ~$1,000 in labor per unit
They "don't do work with VRF solutions anymore".... I didn't press for details… but seems like it wasn't personal "they are nice guys".... But they had some screw ups on projects
Additional pricing / installation considerations
Cost of thru wall penetrations is not the same for every building. A Manhattan high rise "without grass around it" is going to need a sidewalk shed… and costs are going to come in at $3,000 per penetration. I think we have used a much lower number in Momentum. THIS SEEMS IMPORTANT… SOMETHING WE COULD DO A BETTER JOB AT IN PRODUCT
Non standard PTAC sleeves are a great fit for them… since replacement PTACs for say a 40 inch (as opposed to standard 42 inch) opening can be really expensive (5k?)
Any building that is going to require thru wall penetrations "needs an MEP" THIS SEEMS IMPORTANT… AS A COST TO SHOW AND A PROCESS STEP TO BID OUT
When I asked Brendan about considerations around overloading riser even if each apartment has a dedicated outlet… he said this was "probably ok" – but "MEP should look at"
They can recommend a list of typical "mid sized building MEP" like: Ventrop, Dagher, Altera. And frankly… based on how Jason says things are going with DOB… it seems like this is a process step that should be required for any building.
If an existing window has enough free area to meet code they don't need to do thru wall penetration and can instead have new window put in with a 6" fixed panel below new window that accomodates penetration (ducted up from unit). He quoted a number like "$600 for new window" which was probably just material and probably metal frame. Just flagging that this could be a cheaper option than 3k thru wall penetrations.
Brendan confirmed that $2,500 is a reasonable number for new dedicated outlet.
Marc (CRO) — 2026-05-05 18:23
Their direct to owner business model
It can ruffle some contractors who don't get to mark up. Paul referenanced Evan Levine from Brightworks screaming at him about
Paul pointed out that the normal 10% contractor mark up for other products is not supposed to go straight to contractor bottom line… it is a service for dealing with warranty type issues that an owner would then have to deal with directly themselves if they buy direct. He pointed out that Rudin recently chose to buy equipment through Turner because they didn't want to deal with such issues.
But he also agreed with my framing that they are more like Tesla with applicance like equipment and have potential to go straight to owners
Objections
Paul… "I understand how you are good for owners…. But how are you good for us if you are equipment agnostic?"…. Related wasn't going to say yes without an agnostic look at technologies across their portfolio – we didn't say their tech was a good fit for every building – we keyed in on only the ones were their tech actually made sense
(although to be fair to Paul I told him that based on convos with other manufacturers, I thought our value add was in the "high single digits" (even though AI told me going into convo to ask for something "in the single digits" based on everything else I fed it from my convos with other manufacturers… more on that in another post)
Brendan: "I can just look at any building and know exactly what they need … you guys are trying to do this with software…" but I can just look at a building (meaning… he knows exactly how to configure and price his equipment including labor cost to optimize for cost…. No one is going to out value engineer Brendan… the rules based framework in his head is going to beat a consultant or MEP any day".... But then when I brought up point about how door knocking is not going to work well for 2M projects and that we can help with that… he agreed.
Marc (CRO) — 2026-05-05 18:23
Where Brendan and I landed verbally.
If you guys are going to bring owners ready to say yes and even get engineering (as required) done in advance (meaning we bid out that MEP service on our platform) … that would be less work for us and we can work something out in terms of transaction fee… let's try something out and go from there… to which I proposed 4% and he said… "sure… I can do that"
Jason (Product/BuildSci) — 2026-05-07 11:25
@Marc (CRO) Can we connect on this stuff sometime soon? I'm not sure I follow all of the variations in pricing and process here, and what to use as list price to index the volume discount on.
Strategy Notebook
Heat pump OEM (PTAC-replacement units). Marathon May 5 meeting with Brendan Casey (decision maker on transaction agreement) and Paul Clark.
Ephoca (now Innova) — May 5–7, 2026 #
Source: #sales-general
Marc (CRO) — 2026-05-05 18:18 Marathon meeting with Brendan Casey (decision maker on transaction agreement) and Paul Clark. Because Brendan was late... I ended up having an hour meeting with Paul followed by an hour meeting with Brendan. Treasure trove of learnigns for both GTM and product. For context... here was my pitch going into it:
Core pitch You've built a strong spec-driven channel for projects that already exist, while we focus on the much larger set of buildings that aren't moving yet but could, by moving owners from "not now" to real $1–2M scoped projects that actually go out to bid Example: Related → ~40 buildings analyzed → 6–7 new projects that did not exist before, now going to bid with scopes centered on your system, effectively expanding pipeline inside a customer you already prioritize
Competition + commoditization (referencing issues they have had with copycats) Today is a claims-driven market, but by driving real projects and capturing actual install and performance data, we turn it into a performance market where differentiation is grounded in outcomes As the market commoditizes and more "good enough" competitors enter, spec position matters less and track record matters more, and this approach builds that track record early and at scale
Economics You already invest to win deals pricing flexibility, and this simply reallocates a portion of that spend upstream toward creating and advancing projects that wouldn't otherwise exist We typically structure this in the high single digits, tied only to incremental projects we help originate and move forward, where the real question is not the fee but the cost of not having the project at all
Marc (CRO) — 2026-05-05 18:22 My notes....
Preferred Pricing Owners who get "special pricing": Related, LeFrak, Van Barton (office to resi conversion). Maybe Equity Residential "should" as well since they "fly into NYC from Chicago to talk about projects in DC, Boston, NYC and Chicago) Brendan's rational for special pricing…. These were the owners who wanted to do 500 unit projects when Epocha only had a 100 unit US install base…. So they took a risk. Special pricing seems to be re-negotirated annually. Currently it is somewhere in neighborhood of "40-45%" or "~42.5%" off of single unit list price (regardless of volume ordered – but these guys are of course only really ordering larger volumes). Compare to standard volume only based pricing discount for "non special" customers which ranges from 30% (100 units) to 35% (2000+ units)... so the special customers are getting anywhere from ~7.5% - 12.5% better pricing than others
Existing channels Primary: specifying engineers (e.g. Juan Carlos at Glickman) – from previous conversations, they have focused most on this one… and it is generating tons of deals for them. Some leads from existing contractors (but those leads usually need a lot of Epcoha's time to develop) Also have a door knocking crew and NTM Tal Eyal (fiormer President of FS Energy) stirring up individual buildings. My comment… "I get how Runwise can have door knockers to sell a 20k solution with a year ROI… but I am not sure how well that is going to work with Some design builds (Eco Energy) who can help try to push through the complexity of selling to co-ops with multiple decision makers ,need for financing, etc. And then those preferred owners for direct sales
Marc (CRO) — 2026-05-05 18:22 Contractors Labor to install their units with the two holes in an existing PTAC or ac sleeve: 2 workers can do 4 units per day…. $1,800 per worker per day = ~$1,000 in labor per unit They "don't do work with VRF solutions anymore".... I didn't press for details… but seems like it wasn't personal "they are nice guys".... But they had some screw ups on projects
Additional pricing / installation considerations Cost of thru wall penetrations is not the same for every building. A Manhattan high rise "without grass around it" is going to need a sidewalk shed… and costs are going to come in at $3,000 per penetration. I think we have used a much lower number in Momentum. THIS SEEMS IMPORTANT… SOMETHING WE COULD DO A BETTER JOB AT IN PRODUCT Non standard PTAC sleeves are a great fit for them… since replacement PTACs for say a 40 inch (as opposed to standard 42 inch) opening can be really expensive (5k?) Any building that is going to require thru wall penetrations "needs an MEP" THIS SEEMS IMPORTANT… AS A COST TO SHOW AND A PROCESS STEP TO BID OUT When I asked Brendan about considerations around overloading riser even if each apartment has a dedicated outlet… he said this was "probably ok" – but "MEP should look at" They can recommend a list of typical "mid sized building MEP" like: Ventrop, Dagher, Altera. And frankly… based on how Jason says things are going with DOB… it seems like this is a process step that should be required for any building. If an existing window has enough free area to meet code they don't need to do thru wall penetration and can instead have new window put in with a 6" fixed panel below new window that accomodates penetration (ducted up from unit). He quoted a number like "$600 for new window" which was probably just material and probably metal frame. Just flagging that this could be a cheaper option than 3k thru wall penetrations. Brendan confirmed that $2,500 is a reasonable number for new dedicated outlet.
Marc (CRO) — 2026-05-05 18:23 Their direct to owner business model It can ruffle some contractors who don't get to mark up. Paul referenanced Evan Levine from Brightworks screaming at him about Paul pointed out that the normal 10% contractor mark up for other products is not supposed to go straight to contractor bottom line… it is a service for dealing with warranty type issues that an owner would then have to deal with directly themselves if they buy direct. He pointed out that Rudin recently chose to buy equipment through Turner because they didn't want to deal with such issues. But he also agreed with my framing that they are more like Tesla with applicance like equipment and have potential to go straight to owners
Objections Paul… "I understand how you are good for owners…. But how are you good for us if you are equipment agnostic?"…. Related wasn't going to say yes without an agnostic look at technologies across their portfolio – we didn't say their tech was a good fit for every building – we keyed in on only the ones were their tech actually made sense (although to be fair to Paul I told him that based on convos with other manufacturers, I thought our value add was in the "high single digits" (even though AI told me going into convo to ask for something "in the single digits" based on everything else I fed it from my convos with other manufacturers… more on that in another post) Brendan: "I can just look at any building and know exactly what they need … you guys are trying to do this with software…" but I can just look at a building (meaning… he knows exactly how to configure and price his equipment including labor cost to optimize for cost…. No one is going to out value engineer Brendan… the rules based framework in his head is going to beat a consultant or MEP any day".... But then when I brought up point about how door knocking is not going to work well for 2M projects and that we can help with that… he agreed.
Marc (CRO) — 2026-05-05 18:23 Where Brendan and I landed verbally. If you guys are going to bring owners ready to say yes and even get engineering (as required) done in advance (meaning we bid out that MEP service on our platform) … that would be less work for us and we can work something out in terms of transaction fee… let's try something out and go from there… to which I proposed 4% and he said… "sure… I can do that"
Jason (Product/BuildSci) — 2026-05-07 11:25 @Marc (CRO) Can we connect on this stuff sometime soon? I'm not sure I follow all of the variations in pricing and process here, and what to use as list price to index the volume discount on.